Curse

Oni No Arashi · May 25, 2005, 05:13 PM // 17:13

And PVP does? Co-Operation is the big part of the game... period. There is no 1 vs. 1 PVP in GW at this time. I've done both, do both... and the same skill, patience and co-operation seems to be good for BOTH.

Lim-Dul · May 25, 2005, 05:18 PM // 17:18

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I've done both, do both... and the same skill, patience and co-operation seems to be good for BOTH.

Wise words.

Btw. The attribute boost award would be a major imbalance to the game. The best guilds would get even better? LOL! No one could dethronise them! Rather give them a handicap. :-P

Lasher Dragon · May 25, 2005, 05:21 PM // 17:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

PvE doesnt require much skill past learning to cooperate

Mmm hmm... yeah... go play in the Fissure or the Underworld for a while. No skill there = swift total party death. Hell down there 7 out of 8 people in your party can be very skilled, and have 1 jackass get everyone killed.

May 25, 2005, 05:22 PM // 17:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oni No Arashi

And PVP does? Co-Operation is the big part of the game... period. There is no 1 vs. 1 PVP in GW at this time. I've done both, do both... and the same skill, patience and co-operation seems to be good for BOTH.

Cooperation is good enough to get you to tier 1 tombs. It wont get you a win vs skilled teams. The difference between this and PvE is that cooperation is just basic but not all there is to PvP, while PvE is just knowing how to beat the AI and hold your nuts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasher Dragon

Mmm hmm... yeah... go play in the Fissure or the Underworld for a while. No skill there = swift total party death. Hell down there 7 out of 8 people in your party can be very skilled, and have 1 jackass get everyone killed.

yes, because all the top guilds can farm Underworld with no problem. Get real, please, if you think the PvE in this game is hard because it takes skill there's no wonder all these PvE centered guilds cant compete. Instead of being biased for your love of PvE just look at it for what it is. Its been over 3 years, a multitude of PvE guilds and even GotW features and to this day there is no top level strategy for PvE, but yet there is supposedly a way to be uber at it? Like I always say, most people that are "PvE" only and think it's a big accomplishment are scrubs anyway.

Lim-Dul · May 25, 2005, 05:26 PM // 17:26

Actually in PvE you more often than not have to make builds similar to PvP and use them in a similar manner. I'm not talking about mid-game-fights, but the rally hard parts like the Fissure and the Underworld.

The creeps may not be smart, but what they lack in intelligence, they make up with pure firepower (like most Ele players - huh - I didn't say that ;-) and insane HPs/attributes.

P.S. And heck, I enjoy PvP more than PvE - it's just not the case, that you don't have to do anything to be good at it.

And good guilds - LOL - you contradict yourself - so you HAVE to be good to play the hard parts of the PvE, don't you? It's also the good guilds that win in PvP - where's the difference? Where's your point?

PvE is not about "accomplishing" something. It's about fun. If your so competitive and do nothing for fun, then let at least others have their fun.

LathalDraugr · May 25, 2005, 05:30 PM // 17:30

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Originally Posted by Ensign

So you're saying that you want to remove rewards and treasure from the game, and that people should just recieve handouts? Should people just say 'oh, I have a guild, we should have a guild hall' and one should spring into existance - or should they have to actually, you know, spend time and effort to purchase one?

Well why not? I can't see a very compelling reason for guild halls not being automatic on creation of a guild. There are no rewards in any meaningful way, this is a game not real life. There is no objective measure of reward in this there's only entertainment/fun or a lack thereof and most people don't seem to find the current system fun so why not change it?

And this doesn't sound very different from the arguement that PvP chars should have all skills unlocked. Shouldn't people have to "earn" skills and runes?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I'm saying that 100k is a wholly trivial amount of money for a guild to come up with for something as (seemingly) important as a guild hall. As far as I'm concerned, most of these guilds just want to use their hall as a status symbol - so why shouldn't they pay for it?

It might be a trivial amount for leet PvPers or for max size guilds but for a small guild who has to farm for gold, 100k seems like a lot of work for a fairly fundamental part of PvP.

Anyway my problem isn't really the amount although it seems to be a perfect example of price-gouging. It's the fact that entrance to a major part of PvP play is being controlled by a small handful of players and e-bay auctioners. HoH is poor design on the part of Anet, it's too easy for the best players to hold onto it and thereby create a near if not total monoply on Sigils, the fact that sigils are being sold on ebay shows how Anet have caused the very same problem with the in-game economy most MMORPGs suffer from and that Guild Wars was supposed to avoid.

To be fair to Anet it was probably an oversight based on the presumption that guilds would win the HoH get their Guild Hall and move on providing a "test" for guilds entering the ladder but that there would be enough sigils floating around to stock the trader and keep those who only want to PvE happy. Instead before a guild can get into the ladder they're forced to farm for hours or try to beat some of the best teams in the game, hardly a fair challenge for even moderately skilled teams.

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Originally Posted by Ensign

I most certainly do understand mindless fun, and I partake in it at times. What I don't understand is people trying to pass off mindless fun as something difficult of competitive or whatever.

I don't think anybody is. What people are objecting to is that their fun is being reduced or limited mostly by a handful of guilds and players who are being allowed to dictate terms to other players, they don't want to spoil anyone elses fun they merely want the power to ruin other's to be taken away from players who seem quite willing to use greed and competitiveness as an excuse to stop people from accessing parts of the game until they meet an arbitrary set of requirements.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Not even close. I'm simply suggesting that guilds whining about their inability to afford a guild hall is more pathetic than sympathetic. Go and bitch about the price of 15k armor while you're at it.

As opposed to some people who whine about having to get elites and runes? Why pathetic? What's pathetic about wanting to access advertised parts of a game that are being controlled by a small group of childish PvPers. They are not asking for you to give them Sigils out of sympathy they're asking for the ability to manipulate the supply of sigils to be taken from you.

I don't have a problem with the 15k armours because they are a purely vanity item, guild halls are not. This is not a personal issue for me ,I already have a sigil. I'm looking at this from the point of view of poor design and allowing better players to dictate terms to other players is poor design, it's really no different from high level characters killing new players in MMORPGs for no purpose other than the childish desire to make the new players game that little bit more difficult.

Lasher Dragon · May 25, 2005, 05:31 PM // 17:31

Blackace, out of curiosity, how much PvE have you played?

Lim-Dul · May 25, 2005, 05:36 PM // 17:36

LathalDraugr: Wonderful post! You read my mind!

Games are about FUN more than about anything else. And besides - if all you 1337-PvPs (OK - I'm a PvP player, too - I just never intended to dedicate my life to being the absolutely best) say that PvP is the REAL thing, then why do you want to make it so hard for other players to share the fun (e.g. by selling sigils for 100K+)? Huh? Want all for yourself, don't you?

The dark side of human nature always prevails and selfishness seems to be the leitmotiv of most of us. What a sad world. Virtual worlds give us the chance to build a new, better society and still we only end up with a bunch of power-craving idiots who think that they are better than anybody else and turn the would-be utopia into an anti-utopia.

P.S. It's even sadder that after ALL that ANet has done to PREVENT players from taking control over the GW world they have still failed. Isn't the HoH, the Sigils, the runes, the Dragon Swords and the like exactly the equivalent of boss-spawn-camping a-holes in other games? It certainly is.

Stur · May 25, 2005, 05:39 PM // 17:39

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Originally Posted by Blackace

Sorry for telling the truth. No need to get upset over the obvious.

You bring nothing constructive to the conversation; you just like trying to get a rise out of people, and to see how many flames you can start. Unfortunately you’re obviously really good at it or you wouldn’t be here anymore, but I will personally make a note not to bother reading your insults to the rest of us unworthy gamers. I apologize on the behalf of the rest of us for not living up to your uberness.

May 25, 2005, 05:39 PM // 17:39

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Originally Posted by Lasher Dragon

Blackace, out of curiosity, how much PvE have you played?

In the retail game? All the way up to Southern Shiverpeaks. In the alpha test? NDA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lim-Dul

Actually in PvE you more often than not have to make builds similar to PvP and use them in a similar manner. I'm not talking about mid-game-fights, but the rally hard parts like the Fissure and the Underworld.

um..what? For the PvE you dont "have" to have builds akin to PvP builds because alot of the skills that are great in PvP just wont cut it in PvE. It's all about finding a way to beat the AI, and being that there are skills in the game that will do that for you I dont see whats so trivial here.

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The creeps may not be smart, but what they lack in intelligence, they make up with pure firepower (like most Ele players - huh - I didn't say that ;-) and insane HPs/attributes.

I dont remember the mob hp formula of the top of my head, but "insane hp and attributes" in no way translates into taking some incredible amount of brain power to overcome.

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And good guilds - LOL - you contradict yourself - so you HAVE to be good to play the hard parts of the PvE, don't you? It's also the good guilds that win in PvP - where's the difference? Where's your point?

Actually I think you're mistaken. I didn't say you have to be good at PvP to be good at PvE-I'm saying calling yourself good at PvE is meaningless. It was in response to the quoted material which you oh so nicely just took out of context.

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PvE is not about "accomplishing" something. It's about fun. If your so competitive and do nothing for fun, then let at least others have their fun.

Good. So now that we know PvE isn't about accomplishing something and it's about fun-how can anyone reliably say it requires skill to be able to beat the PvE?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stur

You bring nothing constructive to the conversation; you just like trying to get a rise out of people, and to see how many flames you can start. Unfortunately you’re obviously really good at it or you wouldn’t be here anymore, but I will personally make a note not to bother reading your insults to the rest of us unworthy gamers. I apologize on the behalf of the rest of us for not living up to your uberness.

Actually I just wanted to state something that was of my own opinion and you took it to heart. So you actually started a flame war because of something I said, get over it.

Me being here has nothing to do with my behavior, I'm just one of the original members to the site and contributors group. So instead of claiming to know why or what I'm doing here, continue to ignore my posts. No one is forcing you to be here and no one is forcing you to complain over nothing, if you dont like it then ignore it. Thanks.

Lasher Dragon · May 25, 2005, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

In the retail game? All the way up to Southern Shiverpeaks.

So, you got right up to where it starts to get good, and then what? Switched to PvP? Just as I cannot make any reasonable comments on PvP, I say if you haven't beaten PvE (without riding anyone's coattails, either) you are talking out of your ass when you say it requires no skill.

Lim-Dul · May 25, 2005, 05:45 PM // 17:45

Don't you freaking understand that some people think that everybody can shove their "skill" up where the sun doesn't shine?
I'm sick of hearing about "skill" in every game from 14-year-old nerds (I'm not referring to you, Blackace - you can strike the "14-year-old" part ^^). I want to have FUN, not to have "skill" - besides - what do you get for your "skill"? Nothing besides fame in a virtual world.

I have a good job, a loving girlfriend and am studying at University in the meantime - that's what I call "skill" - not fighting monsters, other players or whatsoever in a game. Get a life, freak!

P.S. Ah! Now I see your problem Blackace. I don't think I should continue our puny little arguement as it's pointless to argue with a guy who writes something like this in his forum-profile:

"Occupation:
Ruler of the Universe"

And everything starts to become clear. It's not about GW, it's about your ego, which is way too big. ;-)

Stur · May 25, 2005, 05:48 PM // 17:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lim-Dul

I want to have FUN, not to have "skill"

Well said my friend, well said.

May 25, 2005, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasher Dragon

So, you got right up to where it starts to get good, and then what? Switched to PvP? Just as I cannot make any reasonable comments on PvP, I say if you haven't beaten PvE (without riding anyone's coattails, either) you are talking out of your ass when you say it requires no skill.

Who said I havent beaten the PvE?

Quote:

Don't you freaking understand that some people think that everybody can shove their "skill" up where the sun doesn't shine?
I'm sick of hearing about "skill" in every game from 14-year-old nerds. I want to have FUN, not to have "skill" - besides - what do you get for your "skill"? Nothing besides fame in a virtual world.

So you admit that it doesnt take skill-good so we can drop this argument. While your at it you can continue to make personal attacks on the "nerds" that play this game. Doing math isn't hard, but to each his own.

Quote:

I have a good job, a loving girlfriend and am studying at the University in the meantime - that's what I call "skill" - not fighting monsters, other players or whatsoever in a game. Get a life, freak!

What does this have to do with anything? Once again we get to the age old argument that being good at a videogame makes you a nerd, and a loser. Good, you're a pro at stereotyping people.

Lim-Dul · May 25, 2005, 05:57 PM // 17:57

You didn't get my point: what makes up a loser and a nerd is being good at playing a game and becoming so arrogant as to ruin other people's fun.

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What does this have to do with anything?

Nothing - besides the fact that the meaning of the word "skill" has shifted so much recently, that I'd love to throw it out of the English language. :-P

thorizdin · May 25, 2005, 05:57 PM // 17:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lim-Dul

Don't you freaking understand that some people think that everybody can shove their "skill" up where the sun doesn't shine?
I'm sick of hearing about "skill" in every game from 14-year-old nerds (I'm not referring to you, Blackace - you can strike the "14-year-old" part ^^). I want to have FUN, not to have "skill" - besides - what do you get for your "skill"? Nothing besides fame in a virtual world.

Wow, sounds like you bought the wrong game, considering the word "skill" is all over their marketing material and every official description of the game. As for what it gets you, well that depends on what progresses. Bear in mind that there has already been one paid tournament in Korea, ($30,000 for the top team) that NCSoft held. I say the prospects for skill look pretty damn good.

As for fun, well that all depends on the individual doesn't it?

Lasher Dragon · May 25, 2005, 05:59 PM // 17:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

Who said I havent beaten the PvE?

Alpha runs do not count. The game has changed far too much since then.

May 25, 2005, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lim-Dul

You didn't get my point: what makes up a loser and a nerd is being good at playing a game and becoming so arrogant as to ruin other people's fun.

You're calling me arrogant for stating something so obvious because it goes against your definition of fun. It has nothing to do with me being good at the game but what you percieve. Instead of actually debating my arguments you and others have had to resort to flaming, showing your lack of credibility or intelligence on the subject. When asked about how far I've been in PvE one of you even took it completely out of context, ignored the other part of the quoted material and went from there. Obviously this has nothing to do with me being arrogant but more about people's feelings getting hurt.

Quote:

Nothing - besides the fact that the meaning of the word "skill" has shifted so much recently, that I'd love to throw it out of the English language. :-P

Good, you know it means nothing so you like posting on the forum for the sake of trolling? You're one in a mil.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasher Dragon

Alpha runs do not count. The game has changed far too much since then.

And you know exactly what has changed how? Whoops nevermind, NDA.
So now something doesn't count because it effectively answers you're question? This "discussion" is laughable.

Lim-Dul · May 25, 2005, 06:06 PM // 18:06

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As for fun, well that all depends on the individual doesn't it?

OK - we're going in circles here.

Let's get some things straight:
- I like PvP
- I like PvE
- I think that PvE isn't much easier than PvP, but requires a different approach - it's even harder if you're trying to coordinate a random party and not an organised guild-party
- I like some social aspects of MMORPGs, like guilds, who should be able to meet in some places (like Guild Halls) even if it were only for chatting
- I don't think less of people who are good at games - I admire their questing to get better and better, but at the same time I hate it when this attitude leads to somebody thinking that he is now the "Master of the Universe" or sth. - modesty is what I seek in a person
- I don't like the elitist-thinking of some people - that is that a game should be only for professionals and n00bs are only there to be laughed at - if you want to boast with your uber-skill, then go to Korea and take part in the tournament, but let others have their fun - people still play tennis and yet not everybody is a pr0 - have you ever seen Roger Federer laugh about somebody because he has less skill? THAT'S what makes up a good player - in any game - an a-hole with a great amount of skill is just an a-hole with skill - I would never call him a good player no matter how often he would win.

Lasher Dragon · May 25, 2005, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

And you know exactly what has changed how? Whoops nevermind, NDA.

I know because a buddy of mine is an Alpha, and he has told me about it.

BTW WTF is NDA?